How To Earn A Seat At The Destination Marketing Table
Alex and Annie want vacation rentals at the table
Annie Holcombe and Alex Husner host the Alex and Annie podcast, and they're heading into their fifth year of it. Both of them work in vacation rentals, and within a few minutes I realised I didn't know 30% of what they were telling me.
The podcast started in a conference bathroom
They first worked together when Alex was at Condo World and Annie was at a distribution channel management company. By 2021 they were doing live sessions together on Clubhouse, and that's where the idea for a proper podcast came from. The name is a play on Alex and Ani.
At their first industry conference after COVID, Alex went into the ladies room and found two women getting ready because their rental wasn't ready yet. They were wearing shirts that said "Ask me about my podcast." Alex called Annie in, and they stayed in that bathroom for about 20 minutes getting advice.
On the last day of the conference they posted the name and logo on Instagram and LinkedIn. Within 20 minutes they were swamped at the bar with people asking when the first episode was coming out. They had no microphones. By Monday morning Alex had registered the websites.
They release every Wednesday and have missed maybe a couple in five years. Each episode goes to the audio platforms and YouTube and gets cut into three reels for YouTube Shorts. It also goes out in a LinkedIn newsletter and an email newsletter. Conferences now ask them to come and do interviews live because of the podcast. I've done three different iterations of this podcast myself, so I give them a lot of credit.
Why a rental is harder to sell than a room
A hotel room is one flat price plus tax. A vacation rental can come with a registration fee and a cleaning fee on top, plus fees to heat the pool and for trash and linens. One of them grew up vacationing on the Outer Banks in North Carolina, and her family packed their own sheets and towels every year.
In hotel revenue management you get to play Tetris with the rooms and move guests around. You can't do that with a rental, because the guest booked that specific unit for its decor and its view.
One of them used to say this back at Expedia. A property manager with 500 properties has "500 different general managers that they're working with," and every owner has their own idea of how the rate should be set. Her view is that vacation rental marketers are "a lot more savvy than hotels because there is so much complexity there."
I get the appeal as a guest, too. My wife and I stayed at a hotel on Lake Geneva, and the next year we rented a house further up the mountain with a hot tub and spectacular views. We cooked breakfast at 11 and sat on the patio until nine or ten at night.
Direct bookings cost money too
Alex is more marketing and Annie is more distribution. Airbnb and Vrbo are the two biggest channels for them, and as Alex said, "we're never going to beat them. So it might as well join them." When a guest arrives through an OTA, the marketer's job is to make sure they book direct next time.
Airbnb keeps changing its policies, so relying on one channel is risky. Direct bookings aren't free either, once you count the marketer, the time, the paid budget and the SEO. Alex thinks the healthy mix is somewhere in the middle, with both running at once.
If you're not at the table, you're on the menu
Annie recently had a client in Indianapolis, where Visit Indy doesn't acknowledge that vacation rentals exist. Ask for a rental for a week and you'll be shown a Marriott or Hilton with a kitchen. As she put it, "if you're taking your family a microwave is not going to cut it as a kitchen."
In Panama City Beach, her condos did very little sports business until she got the go-ahead to sponsor and negotiate with the teams. Then it was "like rocket fuel." The teams had washers and dryers and could cook for the kids, which made travel sports more affordable.
She also pointed at New York, where short term rentals were shut down, while most of the hotel companies behind that regulation have short term rental and timeshare arms of their own. She wants property managers and hosts to be more in tune with what their destination marketing organization is doing. Alex has a line for it: "if you're not at the table, you're on the menu."
We go through all of this in the full episode. Watch on YouTube or listen on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Calvin and the Revpar Media team build hotel marketing that drives bookings, from social media management to influencer campaigns.
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00;00;00;01 - 00;00;14;22 Alex is like, you've got to come in the bathroom. You have to come in here. I thought, okay, she's playing a joke on me. So I walk in and there's literally two girls doing their hair and they both turn around at the same time. And they had these shirts on that said, Ask me about my podcast. I had seen them and I'm like, Oh my God. 00;00;14;22 - 00;00;32;25 Like, I'm about to start one. Like, what can you tell me? And I mean, it was just fascinating. They had so much advice for us, so we hung out in the bathroom probably for another 20 minutes. And finally one of us said, we want to go get a drink and talk about halfway through. That's any hokum. And Alex Oh Huebner they co-host the Alex and Annie podcast.
00;00;32;26 - 00;00;57;12 They grew a rental portfolio from 0 to 1500 properties. That took just two years. They revealed how vacation rental storytelling works. It earns a seat at destination promotion tables. Hotels already occupied those tables, hotels in markets. New York's great example, they shut down the short term rentals. But most of those hotel companies that are involved or backing some of that that regulation that happens have short term rental arms. 00;00;57;12 - 00;01;14;26 They're diving into that space. They have timeshares, they have it. So they're talking out of both sides of their mouth, too. In my opinion, most vacation rental operators see hotels as their main competitor. But Alex and any show that's the wrong fight. The real risk is invisibility in your own market. Hotels already hold seats with tourism bureaus and regulators.
00;01;14;26 - 00;01;39;28 When you ignore those tables, you lose before regulation arrives. In this episode, you'll learn why hotels lobby for short term rental bans, and why do those same hotels quietly build their own rental arms? Also, we'll learn why proactive relationships with chambers and city officials protect your business before restrictions hit. I'm Calvin Tulloch and this is socially awkward. So what was that experience like with expected the marketing vacation rentals? 00;01;39;28 - 00;01;56;17 How did that differ from from what you experienced with hotels? Complexity of it. I mean, vacation rentals has a lot of fees associated with staying. So when you stay at a property, you're going to typically have a registration fee, which sometimes you'll have it at a resort on a hotel side, but you have a cleaning fee, you pay that separate.
00;01;56;17 - 00;02;21;26 Sometimes there is a fee to heat a pool or, you know, a fee for trash, fee for linens. Like there are markets where actually linens are not provided. And that's kind of common in some areas where barrier islands where they can't do centralized laundry because they don't have industrial laundry facilities. So I know I vacationed growing up on the Outer Banks, North Carolina for years, and we always had to pack our sheets and towels and we brought everything with us. 00;02;21;26 - 00;02;39;05 And so that some of those things were just still in place throughout the country. And there's no areas. My operations vary by the company, they vary by the market, they vary by the seasonality, whether you're ski or beach like, there's a lot of variables there and the channels just didn't understand that. It was very much like a hotel is pretty simplistic.
00;02;39;05 - 00;03;01;00 You have a room with one bedroom with two beds, sometimes you have a suite, but everything is included. One flat price plus your tax and your. So that's not how vacation rentals work, not to mention the level of amenities that you have. So if you're renting a home, you know, you've got hot tubs and pools and, you know, multiple bedrooms with multiple bed configurations, bunk beds and futons and all kinds of things. 00;03;01;00 - 00;03;21;10 And so that that just weren't set up for that. So it's been a learning curve for them. I think they've made a lot of good strides. But until you can kind of make sure that you're telling the true story of what this rental looks like for the consumer, it makes it difficult to use the channel. So it was a learning, I think a learning proposition for everybody involved.
00;03;22;01 - 00;03;45;20 Yeah. Yeah, that definitely sounds like a steep curve for for for the hotel marketing space. I mean, as you just you just outlined so many different things, which I didn't even know 30% of what you just said. Oh, know, I didn't know that that was that was the case. Yeah. Having to bring in your own sheets is not something that you would think about. 00;03;46;04 - 00;04;12;28 Yeah. As a, as a former review manager though, that sounds awesome. Yeah. You just have to be just. Hey, listen, we said you'd have a room. No one said anything about a bed, right? Exactly. I can see your condo coming out. No add ons. The add on mostly on sheets y. Well, that's going to be an extra $35 a night.
00;04;12;28 - 00;04;33;19 Yeah. Hellos. And how many now choose wisely because they're 25 bucks a pop. Exactly. Yeah. Most people just brought their linens. But when the founder of Condo World started, the company said, I don't want people having to bring their own linens. And that was it was a novel concept at that time that he made the first vacation rental in our area. 00;04;33;19 - 00;04;48;18 At least that did provide the linens and not just the not just we provide them. You could not bring your own. I mean, like I guess you could and you could change them out. But that was not something that we even talked about because you wanted to be more like a hotel experience. So those types of companies, they're definitely still around.
00;04;48;18 - 00;05;10;20 They're more prevalent in like the traditional beach home type of markets like Outer Banks, Myrtle Beach in some cases. But in most cases you get your sheets, included them. Now, are you guys seeing that vacation rentals are more successful in areas where there's just less hotels? Or have we gotten to the point where they're pretty competitive with the hotel experience? 00;05;11;19 - 00;05;33;26 I think it's I think it's kind of like one of those Depends questions, like there are markets where they absolutely are very competitive. The condos do really well against hotels, especially in the off season. It goes down to the destination, the marketing. So we've been having a lot of conversations as of late about what Demos and CBGB's are actually doing with that inventory.
00;05;33;26 - 00;05;51;03 Some of them don't know that exists. Some of it ignore that it exists and some of them just are still trying to figure out what it looks like to partner with them. So there are markets where it's highly successful. I mean, Orlando is a great example of there's a ton of vacation rental properties there. There's also a ton of hotels. 00;05;51;03 - 00;06;10;07 And so it really just depends on what is the you know, what is the guests coming? What is their intent for travel? Is it for a convention? Is it there for family? Is it there for a work trip combined with a family trip? There's that that's really just this kind of like, again, the messaging to the consumer and what their what their travel needs are.
00;06;10;07 - 00;06;31;20 I don't know, Alex, when I would jump on that one. Yeah, no, I agree with that. I think it really comes down to the type of traveler that's going to that destination more than anything else that, you know, Myrtle Beach, for example, is a big corporate business travel location, but is a really nice mix of hotels and vacation rentals that kind of work together there. 00;06;31;20 - 00;06;49;21 And I think even if it's not a corporate thing, if I'm just traveling with my husband, we typically do stay in a hotel. But if we're traveling with Annie and her husband and three other friends, we're probably going to get a vacation or Alex. It just makes more sense, not only economically but also for enjoyment of the stay to have everybody together in one place.
00;06;49;21 - 00;07;09;21 So it's really about like knowing the audience I think is the biggest thing. Yeah. And I think that's that's marketing in general, right. Is knowing your audience is going to be key to doing anything. Yeah. But it's, yeah, it's a good point because the first time I stayed at a vacation rental, we were in Switzerland, my wife and I, that's maybe ten years ago. 00;07;09;21 - 00;07;29;03 The first time I went with her, we stayed at a hotel. And this is like right on Lake Geneva, a very small town. So there's not a ton of things to do that kind of get out, get out of the room, you have breakfast and just walk around. But mostly you just want to sit, read a book or just look at the lake or anything.
00;07;29;12 - 00;07;58;12 But in a hotel room, it's not as easy to do, especially if it's just your regular room unless you get something with a balcony or something like that. So when we went the following year, we actually did a vacation rental. We rented a house a little further up the mountain hot tub outside and just spectacular views. And it just it was such a better experience because at least I felt like we got more off the day, you know, we didn't have to get up at a certain time to go get breakfast because breakfast was going to close.
00;07;58;24 - 00;08;23;06 You know, at 11 we cooked breakfast at 11, you know, and then on the patio until nine, 10:00 at night, because we had that space to enjoy. Yeah, it just felt like a much like we got more out of it by being in a in a home. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100% makes sense. But I want to circle back to the beginning before we dove more into that, the marketing piece. 00;08;23;21 - 00;08;48;11 How did you two even meet? It doesn't sound like you work at the same company. No, no. Yeah, no, we didn't. But our our paths crossed a few different ways. And again, this is in the years that I was at Condo World that I think the first time we met Annie was part of it was working for a distribution channel management company and we were using that service for the business.
00;08;48;22 - 00;09;13;04 And we I don't know how it escalated that we became so friendly, but like I guess just our energy. We had fun on the calls and then at some point we must have gotten each other's digits and started texting on the side. I didn't really know, but then we didn't. We stayed in touch. And then I remember there was a conference in Miami that it was the first time I was going to a conference by myself without other people from my company. 00;09;13;12 - 00;09;31;15 And I didn't really know anybody that was going to be at this event. And I was really nervous going into it. And I remember when I saw her, I was like, Oh my God, thank gosh, I know somebody here. And it's like somebody that I'm comfortable with. And so we sat at breakfast and I remember we talked about our dogs and just kind of, you know, casually hung out.
00;09;31;15 - 00;10;00;05 And then it was fast forward a few years like 20, 21. So post-COVID we and we got invited to do these clubhouse get togethers. Which clubhouse? I don't even know if it's around anymore, but it was like a live podcast that they if you missed it, you didn't get to hear it. And so she was hosting these great topics that we were talking about, demos and, and as tourism, you know, the broader sense and activities and like how vacation rentals can work with them. 00;10;00;05 - 00;10;17;13 And I was on a couple of them with her and we were just texting again and said This would be fun to do as an actual podcast that people can listen to, not just right in the moment there. And so that kind of planted the seeds. And then as we started thinking, okay, this could be a real, real thing, what are we going to call it?
00;10;17;28 - 00;10;35;06 And we came up with Alex and Annie because it is our names. But again, it's a little bit of a play on Alex and Ani, but then we said, Well, we how are we going to describe what it is that we do? And so we're trying to think of something catchy and we thought like the Real Housewives were the real women of vacation rentals. 00;10;35;06 - 00;10;52;24 And so when we started telling people about our idea, people loved it. And they kept asking, When's the first episode come out? Like, What? What is it going to be? And and we didn't even have our microphones yet. We had no idea how to do any of this. But we decided let's let's put some effort to it and let's figure it out.
00;10;52;24 - 00;11;14;03 And it just it took off and was accepted within our industry really quickly and literally. It's just been it's at a mind of its own in a way that it's just we've grown and we've opened so many doors through the show, but both for us and for the people that come on the show. And it's just been a really fulfilling part of our careers to this point. 00;11;14;03 - 00;11;34;20 So yeah, and so I forget anything I should add. I know there's a lot of details in between. So I mean, I think there were some like really kind of there was light bulb moments that kind of come up or like we started the show was like, aha! Moment, but there were things that kind of happened leading up to it that we look back on and it was like, Oh, well, that, that like that makes sense now.
00;11;34;20 - 00;11;55;20 Or like it was just a seed that was planted. And like it's a big kind of mantra that we have about planting seeds that, you know, wasn't around down the road. But we had gone to the first conference after COVID, obviously the very first VRA, and we'd been we'd been joking about it like texting about it. And I just happened to have the Bitmoji app on my phone, and I connected with her and I was like, Oh, they have a with a microphone. 00;11;55;20 - 00;12;15;17 And like that was like, okay, we could do this. So that's how our logo came to be. But we were at the conference, and this story just is one of those vivid, vivid moments that will always stick with me and that we had been talking about it and we ran into a real good friend of ours that we like had known through the clubhouse and like podcast and didn't really know well, but like knew like we know you.
00;12;15;17 - 00;12;32;21 Like we hadn't seen him in person all lot. Well slickers and so he had a podcast will try to grow podcast network and we'd been talking to him so we sat down with him and talked with them and Alex went into the ladies room and there was these two girls in there that they were trying to get into their their rental, but it wasn't ready yet. 00;12;32;21 - 00;12;48;09 So they were having to kind of, you know, get dressed and like regroup after flying in in the bathroom. So they had all their stuff staring out a lot all over the place. And Alex is like, you've got to come in the bathroom. You have to come in here. And I, you know, can we just wait? Like, I can I can stand out here, and I know you have to come in here.
00;12;48;09 - 00;13;03;12 And I thought, okay, she's playing a joke on me. So I walk in and there's literally two girls doing their hair and they both run around at the same time. And they had these shirts on that said, Ask me about my podcast. And it was so I meanwhile I and I had seen them and I'm like, Oh my God. 00;13;03;12 - 00;13;24;04 Like, I'm about to start on like, what can you tell me? And I mean, it was just fascinating. They had so much advice for us. So yeah, we hung out in the bathroom probably for another 20 minutes. Then finally one of us said, We want to go get a drink and talk about things and yeah, and then and just, you know, kind of Alex alluded to the it's taken on a life of its own, but it's like in true fashion.
00;13;24;04 - 00;13;39;06 Like Alex is one of those like she's she's just like when she puts something in her mind, she's going to do it and just you're going to go with her. And so we went, we went, we were in different sessions like the last day and we were in different sessions. And again, we'd been talking about it with people and it was being really well received. 00;13;39;06 - 00;13;53;16 So we knew we were on to something and she was, let's put it out there. So we took our logo, we took the name and we put it out on Instagram and LinkedIn, all on our socials, and like within 20 minutes we're swamped at the bar and we're like, Oh my gosh, this is so exciting. This is so great, you know?
00;13;53;16 - 00;14;16;18 And starboy like, what is the first episode is like? Well, I mean, we don't have any equipment. We never had no why was like a Thursday we get home and then Monday morning she messaged me and she's like, okay, I've got all the websites registered. I figured everything out. So I got Page Sprout and all this stuff. And so we, we worked on that for about a month and then we recorded one episode that was just her and I kind of talking about this. 00;14;17;00 - 00;14;32;01 And then we tried to record with a girl that is now one of our best friends, and we had to record with her three or four different times. It was just so horrible. And had it not been for her, we probably would have just said this wasn't meant to be. But she kept going, You can do this. It doesn't matter how many times you can do this.
00;14;32;01 - 00;14;50;23 And so she encouraged us. And I think just having all of these kind of pieces that came along the way, people encouraging us, people saying we could do it, people being exciting about it, you know, about what we thought we could do. It just all just kept pushing us to do it. And like I said, we're going into our fifth year now, so that's awesome. 00;14;51;02 - 00;15;14;09 That's that's I give you guys a lot of a lot of credit for that. It's that's a long time to do a podcast. I think I've done three different iterations of this podcast and five. Yeah. Yeah. Well yeah. Trying to land on what what exactly. Yeah. What works. What I want to talk about what aspect of my business, you know, to focus on and yeah.
00;15;14;17 - 00;15;35;14 Sounds like you guys hit your brand right away. And just also, hey, quick question for you. When was the last time your hotel social media actually brought someone through the door? If you can't answer that, it might be time to rethink your approach. At Rough Bar Media, we don't do marketing for the sake of marketing. Every strategy we build is designed to drive measurable results more bookings, more visibility, more revenue. 00;15;35;14 - 00;15;53;23 We've been on the operations side and we know what matters. If that's something you're looking to solve right now, scan the QR code on screen or hit the link in the show notes. Now back to today's conversation. So actually, I mean, obviously the show here is just talking marketing in general. Right. So how how do you guys find marketing?
00;15;53;23 - 00;16;21;07 Your podcast is very is very recognizable. I think, you know, just from the name is it's easy to say, you know, I remember any when you reached out to me on Instagram to ask me to be on the show and I'm like, Oh yeah, today me a show. You're like, Alex. And early on like that, we're we're not forget that alliteration that you know or it works for sure but and actually I mean our her last name is Holcomb minus she was nurse. 00;16;21;07 - 00;16;44;18 So we have the same initials and we both have kind of unusual like beginning last names. So it just all worked out. I could have been on a podcast. Yeah, well, our company is coming our moments. Yeah, yeah. The parent company of the podcast is our moments and our moments media. And it's funny the things that you do that I don't even know.
00;16;44;18 - 00;17;04;05 I mean, we could have just set up the podcast as its own LLC, but for some reason we thought had the greater thinking in mind of Let's start the business as something that's not just the podcast. The podcast is part of that. But in case we want to branch off into other things, which lo and behold we have and we are, so that that was a wise decision on that part. 00;17;04;05 - 00;17;28;17 But as far as marketing it, I mean, we really we it's, it's been the power of consistency has been probably the biggest thing that we've in the course of five years, we've maybe only missed a couple Wednesdays like we release every week and just being present. And I think the way that we put together the strategy of every episode we put out is on all the audio podcast platforms.
00;17;28;20 - 00;17;46;06 Also distributes to YouTube. We do three different rails for each episode that are made into YouTube shorts. We do a LinkedIn newsletter, we do an email newsletter, and when we have guests on the show, which our our show is primarily an interview podcast, they push the episode out and their company pushes this out and then we push it out. 00;17;46;06 - 00;18;05;19 So it's like we've really built a kind of a viral experience there just due to the nature of the show. And really, I mean, just when we go to two conferences, I mean, getting to speak on stage and in most cases now we're actually asked to come because of the podcast and people want us to be set up live and doing interviews and things.
00;18;05;19 - 00;18;27;11 And so that's that's been fun, but it definitely gives us a lot more visibility when we're in person at those events too. Yeah, that's awesome. Being that it's Women's History Month and we're all about that's why have you guys on this month. Oh cool. You know what sort of advice would you give to ladies out there looking to start a podcast or or a company? 00;18;27;11 - 00;18;45;07 You know, because obviously you guys have have a whole company behind this. Just do it. I mean, literally, I think it's just, you know, Alex and I are just enough apart that we've had somewhat different experiences in terms of mentorship or placement. And I say ours actually are closer aligned than some of some of our other contemporaries that do this.
00;18;45;07 - 00;19;11;05 But I think sometimes women are made to feel like their voice doesn't matter or that their voice should be secondary to somebody else. And so I think that it's is about being comfortable in your own place, in your own skin, in your own journey, to know that you're here for a purpose and you're here to lend your skills and your voice and your knowledge and everything that makes you unique to the world and put it out there. 00;19;11;05 - 00;19;30;18 If you have an idea, it may not work, you know, but it may. They may morph into something else. It may morph into like, you know, if you want to do it on your own, getting a partner or it may just open doors that you didn't know existed. And I think that's one thing that we both learned is that to not be closed off to the opportunities that come along, they sometimes are like, Oh, they seem great.
00;19;30;18 - 00;19;46;23 And then you look at it, you're like, Oh, maybe not. But they're there for they're there because we put ourselves out there. And so I would just say to anybody, you know, absolutely. If you if you have a thought, just give it a try. Like there's the worst that can happen is it doesn't work. And somebody says, no, but you're not going to die over it, you know? 00;19;46;28 - 00;20;05;23 Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've always kind of subscribed to the thinking of, you know, just commit or commit first and figure it out later. It's like Grant card on line, actually. But once you because once you make yourself committed to something and this is exactly what we did when I pushed out on LinkedIn at that conference and socials that we were starting this podcast.
00;20;05;23 - 00;20;27;04 Like once I put it out there, now I have to do it because now everybody is going to be expecting it. So it's like commit to something and then you'll figure out how to do it. I mean, the details are, you know, there's their details, but you'll figure it out if you're committed enough to making it happen. And I agree on this point to have just, you know, every everybody has a story to tell. 00;20;27;04 - 00;20;49;11 And there are so many great stories that people don't think are worth telling that a lot of people will find very interesting and we we talk about some personal things on on the show, mostly business related, but we've ended up finding out that, you know, at conferences and things, we'll have people come up to us that they don't know us, that they know a lot about us because we have shared tidbits over the years.
00;20;49;11 - 00;21;08;14 And I just bought a horse about a month ago and I have yeah, very excited. I talked about that process on our first of the year January episode, and since I've talked about it there now like whenever I've been on meetings or one conference I've been doing, everybody's running up to me asking like, Did you buy the horse? 00;21;08;14 - 00;21;26;17 Or like, what's his name? What does he look like? And it's like, you know, you're you forget that you had even mentioned something. People people calling the people that they they know and they like and they trust. I think ultimately putting yourself out there as authentically as you can is that's where the magic happens. Yeah. Yeah. Well, now I got to know about the horse.
00;21;27;03 - 00;21;48;27 Yeah, that's a horse stick. He's American saddle bred. And I used to ride for four years from when I was, like, literally a baby until I was and of high school. And it took a very long break. About 26 years, to be exact. He's young, he's only three, so he's still a baby. And I have a lot to remember. 00;21;48;27 - 00;22;13;02 And it's been fun so far. That's awesome. Awesome. I got to say, that's one of the things that scares me. Riding horses. Yeah. I mean, they're not. They're not small animals. No, they're not. As a kid, I was always a little curious about, like, skateboarding, but I was like, Yeah, I fall off of that thing. I could get hurt and fall off a horse, you know?
00;22;13;19 - 00;22;35;23 So, yeah, skateboarding, actually, it seems scarier to me than I would agree with that. I mean, I'm not I'm not exactly like running up to jump on a horse that I feel like skateboarding would be more dangerous. Really? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. That's that's the ground. I've actually fallen off of a skateboard and one of those, like, fall up, you know, go up in the air and fall on or something like on the pavement. 00;22;35;23 - 00;23;01;01 I've actually done that before, you know, so I don't I don't know. I feel like a horse would be less of a I don't know. I'm just like, yeah, I my logic behind that was, you know, a skateboard is about that much off the ground. Yeah. I mean, yeah, the distance wise velocity make sure yeah. That that is fun but very cool.
00;23;01;02 - 00;23;23;03 Well we wish you and chapstick a lot of fun. I'm going to take you to tune in because this is a like that. I'll live vicariously through you. Yeah. Oh, yeah. There's a lot of content coming, so stay tuned for that. Love that. All right. So let's switch back gears a bit and just get into the conversation about vacation rentals versus hotels. 00;23;23;03 - 00;23;53;01 Right. You know, we kind of touched on some of that earlier in the conversation. How would you say marketing the two assets are different or are they different? Mm. I mean go ahead. Yeah. I mean I think, I think they are for sure. I think again, I think that vacation rentals brings a lot more complexity really in every level that if you're marketing a hotel, I mean normally there's you could have a number of room types, but you are marketing a room type.
00;23;53;01 - 00;24;24;16 And so you as a revenue manager, you get to play Tetris with the boards and move things around to be able to maximize the revenue there versus with the vacation rental. You know, you can't do that if somebody is booking a specific unit for the decor and the view and everything else, you can't move around how an and I really connected early on was there's a lot of the condo resort type properties in Myrtle Beach and in Florida where any is and I mean all across the country but these are they're condos or condo resorts that they are owned by homeowners.
00;24;24;16 - 00;24;46;10 So they're they're vacation rentals, but they're marketed like a hotel that they have the front desk and they have the F and B and they you know, they do, you know, events and conferences and things like that. And so they really operate really in that kind of in-between of hotel and vacation rental. And that industry has really had a lot of challenges because they're not fully one or the other. 00;24;46;10 - 00;25;16;21 And the technology that's vacation rentals doesn't totally work for them. And the technology that's hotels doesn't totally work for them. And then you throw in Vershbow on Airbnb and they have to be on those channels. But if they're on a hotel based software, they those don't connect. And so it's like they've got to use beyond their their booking system a different kind of a channel manager for that inventory that really still is not geared towards vacation rentals, but it's what connects with their hotel PMS, the pools and the other things that you have there versus in a vacation rental.
00;25;17;01 - 00;25;43;02 You know, it is a site or it's a standalone property, a home or it's a condo, but you don't have control over the amenities. So there's I think it's you know, I don't know that either is easier or I think they're just different. But I think vacation rentals can be a lot more nuanced. MM Yeah. Yeah. And I think the thing that's interesting in vacation rental space also is there's, there's a story that can be told with a vacation rental that you can't tell with a hotel. 00;25;43;12 - 00;26;17;12 Now I say that, you know, there are some of these hotels that some of the brands have that are like the historic buildings where there's something there's a story around it. But every vacation rental has a different a different look, feels it, has some history to it in some respects. A property manager and I always said this when I was at Expedia, I was like, if you look at a property manager and they have 500 properties there, Mark, they have 500 different general managers that they're working with, 500 different marketing minds that are involved in the conversation, 500 different beliefs and how the rates should be set, you know, policy should be.
00;26;17;12 - 00;26;36;00 And so a manager has to kind of like wrangle everybody in and find a, you know, find commonality to be able to market it, but then go into the go all the way granular and say like, well, this property is going to fit this guest who wants this experience at this time, you know, this way, whereas a hotel can be somewhat generic. 00;26;36;00 - 00;26;58;27 So I think that there, you know, I feel that marketers in the vacation rental space are a lot more savvy than hotels because there is so much complexity there. Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's a very good point. So where where do you guys see the vacation rental business going in the near future? You know, asking the question kind of on the the premise, you know, with with hotels.
00;26;58;27 - 00;27;25;12 Hotels have marketed themselves very differently over the past 5 to 10 years. People are getting a lot more active on social media. Instagram, Tik Tok if they're if they really, you know, courageous, where do you guys see things changing or how has it changed over the recent years? I think that, you know, as as far as the timeline of things or like how different parts of that we all struggle with have hit us. 00;27;25;22 - 00;27;46;00 You know, there's the airlines and then there's hotels and there's vacation rentals and there's tourism activities. And, you know, with the airlines dynamic pricing and what that did to the industry, same with hotels. And then for, you know, for hotel, for hotels in particular, direct bookings and making sure that they needed to keep the bookings outside of the OTAs as much as possible.
00;27;46;09 - 00;28;17;23 And then that hit the vacation rental side. It's like all those things have kind of trickled down for those four sectors and you know, for the companies that have been doing vacation rentals for a long time, like the one that I was at, we knew there were no OTAs back in the day. I mean, we, I think our website launched the first version of it was like in 2000, but it wasn't until probably the 20 tens or so that really online bookings became a big part of the business, that it was mostly phone and it was print and magazines and things.
00;28;18;07 - 00;28;40;13 But the, you know, the Bourbon Airbnb for us are for sure the two biggest channels. We can't be A.T. because, one, we're never going to beat them. So it might as well join them. And to let them go out there and spend all the money on Google and everything else. And as long as you're set up to get your fair share of the bookings, when something lands on that channel, then that's great. 00;28;40;13 - 00;28;58;15 And the way, you know, Annie and I, she's more distribution, I'm more marketing. But we both really understand that they go together. But if you get a guest from one of the OTAs, your job as the marketer is to make sure that next time they come back, they book direct. And I think that's that's something we've known forever.
00;28;58;15 - 00;29;25;13 But in our industry now, you've got the newer companies and people that have come into it, post-COVID, that they didn't even think about direct bookings because there was such an influx through the OTAs that they didn't have to worry about it. Well, now fast forward and you know, Airbnb in particular that, you know, continues to make different policy changes that can really, you know, fundamentally change how you operate other either as a individual host or a company on the platform. 00;29;25;25 - 00;29;46;11 And it's it's risky. So when you put all your eggs in one basket, you really are setting yourself up for a bad situation. So there's a lot more interest now in the last year or so of people trying to get into doing direct bookings. But at the end of the day, the cost to do direct bookings and have that as a strategy, it's not like those bookings are free.
00;29;46;12 - 00;30;03;17 I mean, the price that you pay to have as a marketer that can run that and the time that it takes and the budgets that it takes for paid like an SEO. I mean, there's a lot to it, but I think a lot of companies just they get it on one side or the other and they fixate on it. 00;30;03;17 - 00;30;35;24 But really in today's day and age, I think somewhere in the middle is the healthy mix that you've got both sides running simultaneously. Yeah. And I think in looking at like where the industry goes, you know, there there's also kind of parallel to this direct booking conversation is we have a lot of challenge in markets with regulation and some of it is is fair and some of it is, you know, a fair assessment of the way that industry is because we don't have the standards and the the you know, maybe the regulatory stuff that was in place for hotels, we don't we don't have that.
00;30;35;24 - 00;30;56;17 And not to say that it's it's not needed, it's just, you know, we're trying to there's the people are trying to find where that space is. But I think because of that, it's causing some reactive regulatory. And there's also like this proactive. Well, we're going to get ahead of it because we heard these horror stories in a market 10,000 miles away that could potentially come to us. 00;30;56;23 - 00;31;24;13 So we don't want it to happen. So we're going to put these regulations and these restrictions, these these rules of engagement that didn't exist. So that's a really big problem. It's ongoing. But I think greater to that is within the markets, the conversation of working with your destination and being good to the to the market. I mean, you know, Alex and I both come from markets where the vacation rentals are a very large portion of the overall economy.
00;31;24;18 - 00;31;46;19 And if you took those out, there's a lot of things that would never have come to fruition for the market, the ball fields, the shopping, the restaurants, the you know, the attractions, those type of things. Because the volume of people coming in for sports tournaments and large scale events and families coming in for their vacations, like if that hadn't happened, the markets wouldn't have blossomed like they have. 00;31;46;19 - 00;32;07;07 And so there has to be a recognition that we can all coexist. But it's how it how does that coexisting happen and what is the messaging and who's going to drive that? And so there's a there's a large call, a greater call for property managers and hosts in their markets to be more in tune with what their destination marketing organization is doing.
00;32;07;14 - 00;32;30;28 I had a client just recently that's in Indianapolis, very large market, very well-established and very well run marketing for the destination. I mean, they have a sport, they have sports teams, they got all the stuff that a urban market would have, but they don't even acknowledge that vacation rentals exists in their market. So if you go there and go to visit Indy, you're not going to get vacation rentals. 00;32;30;28 - 00;32;46;24 If you ask for I need a long term rental or a rental for a week, they're going to show you a hotel. They're going to show you one of the Marriott or Hilton brands that have like, you know, kitchens, that type of thing. But again, even if you're taking your family a microwave is not going to cut it as a kitchen, you know.
00;32;46;25 - 00;33;09;27 So it's just acknowledging that there is there are people coming to markets that that need that. I mean, if you I always talk about the sports market for Panama City Beach. When I had hotels, we did a lot of sports when I got the condos and got the vacation rentals, not a lot of sports. But when I had the blessing from the organization to go after and negotiate and sponsor and be part of it, it was like rocket fuel. 00;33;09;27 - 00;33;35;03 It was like the sports teams loved it. They had washers and dryers. They could cook meals for the kids and all of a sudden became more affordable because travel sports is expensive. So I think organizations need to recognize the value of having that as an enhancement to their marketing and not a detriment to the hotels. So I do find it funny and we talk about this a lot on the show is that, you know, hotels in markets, New York is a great example.
00;33;35;03 - 00;33;57;26 You know, they shut down the short term rentals, but most of those hotel companies that are involved or backing some of that that regulation that happens have short term rental arms. You know, they're diving into that space. They have timeshares, they have it. So they're talking out of both sides of their mouth, too, in my opinion. But it's like, how do we get everybody to the table to have a conversation? 00;33;57;26 - 00;34;15;13 And so Alex has always said it very, very succinctly. As you know, if you're not at the table, you're on the menu. And so make sure you're at the table. And so that's what we just encourage everybody to do. But I think that's the big thing that's that's coming for vacation rentals is how to collaborate better with within their markets.
00;34;15;13 - 00;34;40;21 Yeah that's great insight. So for for those folks because most people that I've met that are in the vacation rental ownership spaces typically, you know, a couple or a family, they may have just one or two things and they're working with a very small budget. If someone was just starting out and they wanted to get into renting out a home, what what would be the first thing that you would suggest that they focus on? 00;34;40;21 - 00;35;06;03 Hmm. I mean, it depends. Like, if if it's just if it's a property that they bought as an investment property, you've got to make sure I would say that, you know, if it if you can within your budget to make the property look unique, I think that's kind of the main thing. And as any alluded to earlier, I mean, the value proposition of a vacation rental is that it does look different than just a standard accommodation.
00;35;06;03 - 00;35;31;17 But what are some of the things, big or small, that you could do to make it really be instagrammable and that it's going to it's going to stand out in the list of a million different Airbnb on a website. That's a big part. And you know, really, if want to be smart about it early on, thinking about how you make guests feel welcome in the home and what are the small touches that you can do to make sure that they do remember you for the next time? 00;35;31;17 - 00;35;56;02 So whether it's, you know, a guest book or if it's a leave behind, like some sort of if you made a brand for the house, like if got magnets or coasters or swag or something that you can let them take home with them, that's always a good thing. Most hosts get started. They just put the home just just on Airbnb and then they start realizing, well, there's, there's Expedia and there's Ramone booking and there's other places that I could market this.
00;35;56;02 - 00;36;16;28 So they now go to a property management system and a channel manager. But if you're just starting out, I think having that mindset of, you know, I want to build something that I can continuously improve on as I get more sophisticated or want to get more serious about this. Yeah, definitely have a plan and think about where you want to be three, five, seven years. 00;36;16;28 - 00;36;44;25 So you can sort of know when you get to certain benchmarks what you need, what lever you need to pull. Everybody doesn't need a PMS out of the gate. Right. You know what? If you think you're going to grow, you're going to want to start looking at that because a PMS should never be. We've but I've met people and I could speak for myself like that have they're you know they find themselves all of a sudden they were managing one just cause and then other people ask and then all of a sudden they've got 15 properties and they have a desperate decision to make a PMS and they chose to choose a PMS.
00;36;44;25 - 00;37;00;03 They chose one and they didn't like it, but it was because they were desperate and they had choose it. And I mean, just like in hotels, I mean, choosing a PMS is it's not a fun task, you know. So there's that planning. And, you know, we always joke about, you know, having a Bentley by Saturday, but it's it's not it's a lot of work. 00;37;00;03 - 00;37;16;24 And I think people need to go in with the mindset that, like, you can make it a viable business and you can absolutely quit your day job and absolutely make it a business. But you have to think about there's going to be there's going to be work that's put into it. If you don't have that hospitality gene, it makes it even harder, I think, to be in this business.
00;37;16;24 - 00;37;38;00 But if you are under the impression that this is a 9 to 5 or eight, the four or 923, you know, like if you're really going to not have to work a lot, you're going to be very mistaken. I don't know. Yeah. All right. Well, that's a that's a great insight there. But we always wrap up with the most fun question and Amy alluded to it. 00;37;38;00 - 00;38;11;03 At the top is talk about your most awkward travel moments. Who awkward travel moment? Well, I mean, awkward I would say uncomfortable was our last trip to Italy. So we just we were all in Italy. We were all supposed to converge in Milan together last fall. And I was meeting Alex in Atlanta. And then we were on the same flight from Atlanta to Milan while my flight from Panama City to L.A. and I got missed and I got diverted to Paris.
00;38;11;03 - 00;38;31;21 And then I was stuck with a friend in Paris. I mean, well, they were in Milan. And of course, we didn't know this, but we have since learned that, you know, when there's things going on in Europe, they like plan protests, they plan strikes. And so there was a there was a plan strike plan lost about it. Yes, there were there were no there was riots. 00;38;31;21 - 00;38;53;23 There was protest, there was rail strikes. And so we actually I we didn't I didn't actually meet up with the Milan crew until we got to Genoa, which is two days later because we got stuck in. But it was this all kinds of thing is that I would say like it awkward so much as it was just uncomfortable because you're trying to navigate on no sleep in a country that is completely foreign, no.
00;38;53;23 - 00;39;14;05 One and everybody like navigating it in the country is like used to it. They didn't think anything of it. And we're just like, that's not how it is in America. You know, we don't but we don't also don't have rail travel like they like they do in Europe. So it's definitely I feel like that was like to me has been the most like just everything was awkward from start to finish right and not once. 00;39;14;20 - 00;39;35;06 Yeah I was there. I bet I could have thought of a better one, but actually I like this one that it started as a very awkward situation but ended up being one of my favorite days of my lifetime. I think actually that I was in Vegas for a conference, was out there by myself and it was actually it was the timeshare vacation club conference that they wanted to learn about vacation rentals.
00;39;35;06 - 00;39;51;21 And so I got to speak on stage. And, you know, again, one of the situations like when I first met Annie that I didn't know anybody really the day that I was leaving, I got to the dot to the airport and got on the plane. We're about to take off and all of a sudden and I said, Oh, we got to go back to the gate. 00;39;51;21 - 00;40;08;12 And so they take the plane back to the gate. And this was like a jumbo jet style, like 767. I don't know how many, how high the numbers go, but it was a huge plane. So we were waiting for like an hour to deplane and everybody's in line, everybody's yelling. And I'm just like, I don't want to be standing here in line forever.
00;40;08;12 - 00;40;25;29 I'll just tell somebody to go get my bags and I'll just stay another night. And so I thought there would be a lot easier than it sounded, but they can't get your bags off the plane. So after waiting for probably 3 hours down on the baggage claim, hoping they would finally come along on the thing, I said, you know what? 00;40;25;29 - 00;40;43;16 I'm just I have the outfit that I have right now. I have nothing, no other supplies, nothing. I'm just going to wing it. And so I went back down to the Vegas strip and I got a room at the Wynn, and I just did the best I could and kind of like in a gym kind of clothes, like yoga clothes, just just me by myself going out in Vegas.
00;40;43;16 - 00;41;02;28 And I ended up the next day, I took a helicopter ride and I did the spa and I shopped. And it ended up being like just the perfect day of was just like by myself and just like no one to impress because I couldn't even press much at that point. So it was just it was just a fun day that came out of a seemingly terrible experience. 00;41;02;28 - 00;41;26;04 So I just wanted and then go, Yeah, yeah. Just going to when it went for a helicopter ride too, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is so cool and it's so, so cool that it was very adventurous that trip. Yeah, yeah. I love that. I love that. Cool. Oh, all right. Well, we got wrap it up there. Let's let the audience know where they can where they can find you.
00;41;26;04 - 00;41;51;09 Where can they see you next? Sure. Yeah. You can go to Alex and Annie podcast com and from there you can subscribe, listen on whichever platform that that you like or you can go right to the platform and just search Alex and Annie. But that's the best way to get in touch with us or LinkedIn. Alex My last names Houston, US, NPR would love to talk to anybody and hopefully one of these days we'll make it to our hotel conference. 00;41;51;09 - 00;42;10;20 We've never been to a traditional hotel conference, so maybe one of these days or I may make it to a or you talk to run. Yes I think that's even better. Yeah, I think, I think you'd enjoy our the ones we go to with. Oh well thank you guys so much for joining the show. This has been awesome.
00;42;10;20 - 00;42;31;03 Always, always a pleasure to talk to you guys. And as Alex said, go find these guys on LinkedIn. Subscribe to the podcast in particular, listen to the episode I was on as Yeah, I won't say it, but it was the best episode that they brought. Oh sure. Obviously. And we will see you guys on the next one. Awesome. 00;42;31;03 - 00;42;34;00 Thanks, Gavin.
